IBC, HSAs, Health, and the Freedom to Heal

- Hi everybody, this is John Montoya.

- And this is John Perrings.

- We're authorized Infinite Banking practitioners and host of the Fifth Edition. Episode 55, The Ultimate HSA. In today's episode, we're going to discuss what is an HSA, how does it work, what are the limitations, and ultimately, what we feel is a better alternative, what we're calling the ultimate HSA. And on this episode, we're gonna have a very special guest who is going to speak about her experience with IBC and how she used her Infinite Banking policies really as what we're championing on the show here in this episode, her policies as the ultimate HSA. So John, thank you for being here and let's jump into it.

- Absolutely, thank you and I'm excited to have this conversation today.

- Me too 'cause our special guest happens to be my spouse, and we had a, you know, something that affected us pretty, pretty closely, I mean as closely as we'll detail later. But we want to get into first, you know, what is a health savings account? Because these are pretty popular accounts, ironically, at least from our approach, created by the government and they have their use cases. And let's talk about what is an HSA first so people can quickly wrap their heads around why we're even talking about this today.

- First of all, I agree. You know, HSAs are kind of like 401Ks where they're kind of a sacred cow out there where I see a lot of people that have them and they defend having one very strongly, they feel very strongly about having an HSA, but then what I find in reality is that they don't actually fund their HSA very aggressively. So they feel very strongly about having one, but they don't take advantage of them as much as you might think someone would. But an HSA is really just a, stands for health savings account. It's a tax advantaged savings account that you use to pay for IRS qualified healthcare expenses. So really anyone who's covered under a qualified high deductible healthcare insurance plan can open an HSA. And, you know, there are some advantages and we'll get into some disadvantages as well.

- Yeah and as far as some attractive benefits that an HSA does have, it does offer that triple tax advantage where you and/or your employer can contribute pre-tax dollars to this account, interest and investment earnings can grow tax free, and you can also withdraw the funds tax free to pay for your qualified medical expenses. And so those are nice advantages to really cherry pick on. But you know, we're going to discuss here in a moment, some limitations. Well, how does it work? I would say this is probably one of the major limitations is that here in 2022, if you are an individual, single, the most you can contribute to these accounts is $1,400 a year. And if you have a family, the most you can contribute is $2,800 a year. So it really makes it difficult, especially with the high cost of healthcare coming out of pocket, it makes it hard to build up any emergency rainy day fund for unseen medical expenses when you're limited by what the government tells you you can contribute each and every year if you even qualify for these accounts. So as great as an HSA seemingly is on paper, you have these rules and restrictions that ultimately are going to limit you as far as how much you can contribute to it each year and then if you can even qualify for it.

- Yeah and I think that's probably the number one reason that I don't see HSAs really being funded with any type of real intention. You know, most people have these HSA accounts, maybe they've got a few thousand bucks in 'em and I think this limitation and also just like qualified plans, I think there's probably a lack of understanding of how these things actually work. And so rather than kind of getting super educated and spending a bunch of time trying to understand another government sponsored platform, I think people are just kind of like, yeah, I'll throw some money in there whenever I can. And I think also, you know, I think it's also looked at like it's a supplement to someone's health insurance, which it is, right, that's not incorrect. But because of that, I think people also think that they don't really need to have that much in there, but maybe don't understand how there could be some additional costs down the line if anything happens that's not covered by your health insurance plan. And so I think that's one of the big limiting factors is just a lack of understanding and not really wanting to, you know, jump in with both feet and then maybe a lack of understanding of, you know, what their health insurance will actually cover or not cover, right?

- Yeah and I think one of the other limitations that we need to discuss with an HSA is that it does offer you the ability to invest your balance in these accounts into mutual funds and market based securities. And that, while it may sound like an advantage, I think it's actually counterintuitive to having money set aside for emergencies. Because if you think about it, when you put money aside for a rainy day, that's money that really, you know, you should be removing risk with that money. And these accounts offer the ability to invest that money where if you have what's happening right now in 2022 with the market being historically negative, you know, year to date, well what's happening with your rainy day fund for, you know, medical expenses? It's being cut in half or worse. So this is, you know, an argument in my mind against HSAs because it's supposed to be for emergencies, it's supposed to be safe money and here-

- It's supposed to be savings.

- Right, it's supposed to be savings, and understanding the difference between, you know, saving and investing, and here we are with HSAs and that line's getting blurred all over again. So I think that's a real limitation for people because it opens up that door where once again, we are being conditioned to chase rate of return with money that's supposed to be set aside for unseen medical expenses or maybe even planned for medical expenses 'cause you can use it for whatever you want, but again, you're taking unnecessary risk with that money when with a better alternative you really don't have to. And one other thought that I had regarding the HSAs is that there's opportunity cost inherent with these accounts because let's think of it this way. If you're contributing as an individual $1,400 a year or a family, $2,800 a year, and you use the funds in this account to pay for a medical expense, what happens is that money no longer will compound for you because you have to withdraw it and use it for that expense. So it doesn't allow that money to continually grow uninterrupted for the rest of your life, which I think is a good segue to really, you know, the point of this episode, what is a better alternative, what we're calling the ultimate HSA account or ultimate HSA, IBC?

- That's right, and you know, just to one, just to put one final rapper before we get into the better alternative is, you know, as you were talking it made me think that, you know, his conflation between investing being savings is something that you see really in all of the government sponsored plans. It happens in the HSA that we just talked about, it happens in the college 529 funds that we see, and it happens in, you know, 401K's and IRA's. Somehow those things became known as retirement savings plans when that's actually not at all what you're doing, you're not saving, you're investing. And so, you know, that all just goes all into the principles of Infinite Banking where, you know, we want to maintain control of our capital and never lose the value of that capital anytime, no matter how we use it. And so I think that sums it up nicely into, you know, going into the ultimate, "the ultimate HSA". Did you want to touch on that, John?

- Yeah, so real quickly, here are a few points that we feel are what make IBC the best emergency medical rainy day fund out there. Number one, you can contribute much larger amounts, which will of course help build up the cash values much quicker than what you can do with an HSA. You also don't have the government telling you, you know, you can only contribute $1,400 or $2,800 this year and maybe they might bump that up by an extra $50 next year. You have no big brother telling you how much you can put into an IBC policy. It's really based on your capacity and willingness to redirect premium into a plan. Another point, cash values can be used for anything. You know, we harp on this a lot in this show and I will come out and say, you probably never think about using this for a medical expense, but isn't it nice knowing that if something comes up, you actually have that ability to use it for whatever you want, including medical expenses? I think so. There's no opportunity cost when using the banking function of an IBC policy. We've called it the ninth wonder of the world, uninterrupted compounding interest. So it allows you, even though you are taking a loan against your cash value, that cash value is still continuing to grow uninterrupted. You really can't find that anywhere else. With all the safety and guarantees that you get with the IBC design to whole life policy. Your cash value on these policies, they're safe, they're always growing, they're not prone to market corrections leading to serious draw down and assets like what would happen with an HSA. So it keeps investments separate from your emergency money. And I think the last point is really a, a really big point that most people, myself included, would otherwise never even think of. But when it happens to you, it's actually a big deal. And that's the piece of mind knowing that you have the freedom to make potentially life saving decisions with the financial capital that you have accumulated with no restrictions on how you use it. You have the peace of mind knowing that you're not going to be pressured into making a decision that isn't best for you because, you know, you have limited options available. Your IBC policies give you options, multiple options that maybe you otherwise wouldn't have, and that even applies to potential treatment plans based on, you know, what your health situation may require. So a lot of benefits that are just included with Infinite Banking that I think makes it the ultimate HSA. And I think here is a good point where we'd like to bring on a guest, a special guest to talk about her journey with IBC and ultimately, how she has used it really as her emergency medical savings account. So with no further ado, John, you want to bring on Miss Kelly into the show and let her tell the audience about her experience?

- Absolutely. Welcome Kelly, it's great to see you and I really appreciate you coming on and sharing your story with us. It's super impactful and important and, you know, John said it best when, it's hard to understand the value of peace of mind unless you experience something. And we get this all the time in the insurance industry where people just really only put value on the cash value or they don't even value life insurance at all because they've just never been in a situation where they've experienced anything that's scary. And it's unfortunate because then you wind up, you know, putting GoFundMe fundraisers together when if you had just thought ahead and, you know, put a little value on that piece of mind and understand that there are bumps in the road that do happen. And so I really look up to both of you as people who really practice what we preach and I'm just so thankful that you've had the ability to do this and be able to, you know, take action and not be pressured into decisions, as you said. And we're now seeing the results of that. And so I don't want to tell the story so I'll just turn it over to Kelly and maybe you could tell us a little bit about, you know, what's been going on.

- Yeah, sure. Thank you John and John for inviting me to the show. For me, I'm grateful that I found Infinite Banking when I did. I would say it was a happy accident that it was there when I had a medical crisis 'cause that was not how I got into using the IBC approach. When I started working with Infinite Banking, I was a small business owner and I wanted to plan for retirement but I didn't want to be associated with the stock market and I didn't want to have restricted access to my money, like a 401K, 'cause as a small business owner, liquidity is important for certain opportunities or even in emergency situations. So I wanted that flexibility. And as a small business owner, I actually ended up using the IBC policy as a place to store my quarterly taxes so that the money I was setting aside was making more money than a savings account. I eventually went to work for one of my clients and so closed my small business, but I continued using my IBC policies and keeping them funded 'cause the premise of it really made sense to me and it was a place that I had a lot of freedom and flexibility to control the funds. For something as simple as I want to take a policy loan to buy a car or do landscaping, no one was gonna question what I was up to. So I was, I moved on and was working with a client and continued funding my policies but I had a lot of questions upfront because I had been burned by a variable universal life insurance policy that ended up being like a money pit when the stock market was down. So I was definitely very cautious and skeptical getting into it, but it turned out to be one of the best things that I have chose to do. And in the past year when I have had this health crisis, it had more benefits for me than I even realized when I started that's almost like 12 years ago. So that's kind of how I got into it. But my story is, you know, let's see, I was diagnosed with stage one breast cancer last May, so May, 2021, and one in seven women will have the diagnosis that I have and cancer rates are even higher every year, I mean literally one in three women will get a cancer diagnosis in her lifetime and one in two men will get a cancer diagnosis in their lifetime, so really scary numbers. But for me, my diagnosis came in May of 2021 and they said I was stage one breast cancer, the most common type, most treatable type. I was like okay, my health insurance was great, I was working for a company, I took time off. I had a lumpectomy in July of 2021. They said my pathology was high risk, meaning I had a 30% chance of recurrence, which I was like, ah, 30%, that's not that high but you know just took it seriously. I followed the health insurance guidance, the oncology's guidance and they said, "Oh you should double mastectomy, be proactive." I'm also a BRCA II genetic mutation carrier. So I had the double mastectomy in October of 2021 and the pathology came back, said it was clear. And a double mastectomy is pretty life altering experience and a really big decision. As I was healing from that, I was set to have the reconstruction surgery for the end of February and thought I was home free, everything was gonna be great. In January of 2022, I started having some low back pain and I was seeing a chiropractor. On February 11th, 2022, I was taken by ambulance to the hospital for severe back spasms and I spent the next three days having my L2 vertebrae slowly fracture and break due to stage four breast cancer, which none of my doctors had any idea, they said I was all clear, I was only ever at stage one, but all of a sudden within four months, I had 11 spots in my vertebrae and ribs with stage four breast cancer.

- Is that a function of the breast cancer? Had it metastasized?

- So stage four breast cancer means it's metastasized and it will go to bones, liver, lung and brains is where breast cancer goes to.

- Okay, got it.

- Mine went to the my bones, but I literally had been under significant doctor care and pathology and was supposedly all clear, but yet I had breast cancer in my bones bad enough that one of my vertebrae broke. So I was completely shocked and then completely wondering how did they not know or check or how were there and not any other signs, so very, very surprised, extremely painful experience, just kind of rock your world surprise. And this is February of 2022, just seven months ago. They did CT scans and a MRI and a biopsy and they came back with a very painful and short life expectancy and it was palliative care, and palliative care means we'll give you all the pain meds we can until you slowly leave us. And I was like, phew, that's all you got? I mean this is healthcare. Like don't we have anything better than what you told my great-grandmother in the 1950's? And I just couldn't believe that that was all the choices. And then with a little research, actually a lot of the research, I discovered that our health care in America and our health insurance just has a limited list of things that they will and will not cover. And I was like, well I don't like your plan. And when I think about it, it's like taking my Ferrari to my lawnmower mechanic, I'm taking my Ferrari to these people who are like, well the only thing I could do was small engines, but I'll do what I can. Okay, you may understand my lawnmower but you're not gonna work on my Ferrari. So I was like, what are my other choices? Do I have the freedom to go someplace else and really look at something else? And the answer is, sure and you're gonna have to pay for that. And with more research, I come to find out my health insurance actually knows about these other treatments, they just call them experimental and won't cover them. Okay, so now I've got this whole list of possible things that are better than a painful, short life, but no one's gonna pay for it but me. And then this is where most people sit and go, okay, well I'll do a fundraiser, I will get donations from friends and family. And I was literally sitting with my vertebrae had shrunk to 90% of its height and they were considering whether I will be paralyzed or not and I didn't have time to wait for a fundraiser. And the most amazing thing is I didn't have to wait for a fundraiser. I have an IBC policy, I don't even have to fill out why I want to take a policy loan. I can do whatever I want without restriction. I can choose the healthcare path that was right for me, whether it was considered experimental in the United States and perfectly fine in Germany or wonderful in Mexico. I wasn't held back by what my healthcare would pay for. I wasn't held back by, did I have money in an HSA account? And just to touch on the HSA, A, you can only put in so much per year. And two, you have to track all your receipts, submit all your paperwork, you've got to wait for all of the reimbursement and it's a serious negotiation. And believe me, I've tried, I have an HSA and there's certain things where I'm like, it's not even worth of paperwork but I want that treatment for myself so I'm just going to pay for it. So one of the things, it was freedom to take action, and the other piece I think is overlooked is stress. So being as sick as I was, our healthcare system makes you be the air traffic controller of all your appointments and all your medications and all your treatments while you're going through them. And while your family's there and supportive, you still have to be the person who makes those choices and to track all those expenses. And finding the money and tracking the money and who's gonna reimburse what is stress. HSA is stress. It's great when you're perfectly fine, you just want to go to the dentist and get, you know, or you want to get a massage and just use your HSA card. But when you're really, really sick and you actually need to spend a good of money on choices that our health insurance won't pay for, it's stress relief. There's also minimal paperwork. If you take an IBC policy loan, I could do it online, and if it's less than a certain threshold, I don't even need to print it or sign it or anything, I just submit it and they deposit the money in my checking account. So that piece of mind, the ease of it, I mean I know some people who are going through what I went through and made alternative choices and they tried to take like a home mortgage. They have to fill out why, they have to fill out the paperwork 'cause of what are the risk factors? Do you think they're going to let you have a second mortgage on your house with a terminal diagnosis? No, because they're at it from a risk factor of like who's gonna repay this money? Not the person who's been given a painful, short life. And for me, didn't have that problem. I just said I want to do this, and within two weeks, I was in the treatment clinic that I wanted in a three week inpatient service and doing it, I didn't have to to worry about it. And then when I was in the clinic going through this different path that my health insurance wouldn't pay for, I was like, okay, how can I go and take this home? How can I take this therapy home and continue this healing process? Well I found all sorts of service providers in my area, none of which my health insurance would pay for. I was like, okay, where do I start? What can I do at home? And I'm just gonna pay for it, I'm just gonna figure it out. And then I actually found doctors and physicians who if you don't use your health insurance, they'll actually give you a better price because the amount of work it takes for the practitioners to use health insurance and all the paperwork that also comes with using HSA, they would rather just get paid directly. So there was a convenience factor even for the physicians. And I worked with one physician who actually said that health insurance pays the practitioner so little it's not even worth it for them to take health insurance. So some of the services that I wanted to choose for myself were not available to me because health insurance has a ground down those practitioners to receive so little of those funds. So I could make the choice to go see this practitioner that I wanted who had an excellent reputation as long as I could pay for it myself. So now you look at like my health insurance is actually keeping me from accessing these really amazing healers, but if I had the money to choose, I could access them myself. So I use my policy from that standpoint. Another thing that I don't know if people realize is that when you're really sick, like I was and in pain, disability, they jerk the money around, they may deposit on this day or that day, it may come late, they may take out something for taxes or they may say, oh yes, but minus these five things. So your disability income-

- You're referring to disability insurance here?

- Well, through my employer, I have what they pay me. Then there's the state and then there's the social security disability. What they will pay you, when they will pay you, how much they will pay you, it moves, it changes. So while you're trying to heal and you're trying to pay for your medical bills and all your copays that come through your normal health insurance, your income is all over the place. I mean one month I actually had to call 'em and say, "Are you going to make the deposit?" They're like, "Oh we forgot." I'm like, how is that even possible? And why as the person who's healing, am I chasing down my disability income to make sure it's actually deposited on the time? So you have this additional stress that comes with they will pay you when they get to it. You know, so those are things that with an IBC policy, didn't have to think about it. So the peace of mind to know that I didn't have to worry about my mortgage, I didn't have to worry about paying extra money for services that I need, let's say a pet walker because I couldn't walk my pets, but I just had the money there, I didn't have to wait on this disability income. You know, I didn't have to worry if I could use my air conditioning because I couldn't pay my electric bill because my income had come in late. There was just peace of mind that said, okay, I got this. And that's a wonderful gift as somebody who's trying to heal, who manages a household, to not have to think about it. To go, can I cover my basics? Can I cover my grocery bill? And to be able to just have that peace of mind is a wonderful, a wonderful gift. Even if it's just a short policy loan to get you between your disability payments, the fact that it's even there, that you have that choice, there's a lot of people who have to work through a cancer diagnosis because the disability payments come in at a chaotic schedule and reduced amount every month. So having an IBC policy there, wow, there are no words for it, just to know that you have access to that for whatever it is you need when you need it. And I can pay it back when I'm healthy, or if it didn't work out, it's a life insurance policy, it'll just be deducted. So to me that's another thing is I'm not creating this mountain of debt for myself that I'll never be able to get out of. It's there, it has the flexibility to pay it back when I'm healthy.

- Quick question on how you actually accessed the money. So we've been talking about policy loans and actually using your life insurance cash value to pay for some of this. Was any of the, you know, riders, known as accelerated death benefit riders for chronic or terminal illness, was any of that money used in your case to fund some of the treatments that you were using?

- No, in my case I didn't use that. But what I did do was there is the flexibility to work with the companies and I would say it reduced or it just cut it back to the minimum payment every month, so I wasn't making my full payment, like with the rider and everything. So I have been able to reduce my monthly expenses on paying my policies while I've been out on disability, and that's also been a great relief to have that reduced payment.

- Oh that's huge 'cause that's a big question that comes up all the time is like, you know, people feel like they're locked into paying a certain premium forever when as you just said that's not necessarily the case at all.

- Yeah and it was pretty simple to implement.

- Yeah and there's also a disability waiver of premium that was exercised, which basically waived the premium due on one of her policies, one of her larger policies, simply because, you know, with the doctor's certification that she could not work her primary job, she didn't have to pay the premium, it was actually the life insurance company on the hook for that now. So that was also an additional benefit that she took advantage of.

- And just for the listeners out there, in case we're speaking in tongues to you here, we're talking about riders, which are contract riders to the life insurance policy that have some additional functionality over them just paying a death benefit. One of them are called accelerated death benefit riders, where if you have a chronic or terminal illness, you can get access to a portion of the death benefit before you die, which was not used in this case. And then what John Montoya and Kelly were just saying is that they did take advantage of, there's another rider called a disability waiver of premium rider, which allows you, if you can, you know, if you have a qualifying disability, which Kelly did, the insurance company will pay your premium on your behalf during the term of the disability. I mean you've really just so well articulated just these intangible benefits that are hard to put on a balance sheet or a life insurance illustration or you know, your budgeting software, whatever else you're looking at. And I mean I think some of the things that you said of just having to, you know, and John and I didn't even touch on that whole idea that you have to track all your expenses for an HSA, just all those things that you have to do while you're trying to heal is really a huge deal. And I just, by the way, I kind of mentioned GoFundMe stuff and you know, I'm not knocking people who use GoFundMe's, but is it really what you want to have to rely on? Wouldn't you rather have something that you can rely on where you're kind of doing a GoFundMe ahead of time, you know, where you're raising the funds ahead of time? And you know all the things you're talking about is really, you know, you saved for an emergency, you know you had an emergency fund set up, ready to go, liquid. And by the way, you don't need life insurance to do that. It just so happens that life insurance has, you know, so many benefits over putting it in a bank account that like it's earning whatever 40 times what it'll earn putting it in a bank account so that when you do need it, you're gonna have more there that's available for you. And I mean do you feel the results of the path you've taken have paid off over the other path that was available to you if you didn't have this savings available?

- I'm glad, hold on one second, I'm glad that you asked that John, because as Kelly mentioned, she started this journey with her diagnosis stage four breast cancer in February and this was a, a really, a tough fork in the road in her life because she was given that palliative care option by her doctors here and as she mentioned, quality of life was only going to get worse till the end of her life. And you know, she's a young woman and so much going on in her life, and I know this firsthand, and I should also mention Kelly is my wife so I'm very proud of that fact. And you know, if you're listening to her, you hear just how articulate and incredibly grounded she is. She funded these policies with so much intention to fulfill all the promise in her life. Never once did she think about funding these policies to potentially pay for a life saving treatment plan. But that's where I'd really like to segue into because seven months ago she was only given one option, palliative care by her doctors and she basically said no. And a big reason why is because when you've got nothing to lose, you've got nothing to lose. But these policies gave her an option to pursue another treatment plan, and now we're seven months forward. Kelly, go ahead and jump in. And John, you don't know the news yet, so this might come as a surprise, but Kelly, go ahead and share.

- In August, my neurologist and radiation oncologist said, "Your bones are healed."

- Unreal.

- Yeah, the bones not only grew back, but they grow back stronger. So bone remodeling is that impressive. So just in that short period of time, the treatment path that I chose, the method that I chose that wasn't paid for by my health insurance, my bones are healed. Amazing, just amazing. I am doing endurance training and I'm set to go back to work.

- I stopped by John and Kelly's house over Thanksgiving and she had just had her double mastectomy at that point. And by the way, that happened extremely fast. And then moving to stage four, I mean that was it felt like the next week when John Montoya told me that happened. And you know it's like you get that news and you know, I was just crushed for you guys and then you decided to take this alternative path and it was almost just as fast, I mean I know it doesn't seem like that to you, but it was such a quick recovery compared to what I've seen where, you know, my mom died of lung cancer and it was an eight year process where I just saw this long slow decline. And for you to bounce back and have this incredible news seven months later, I'm just so happy for you and I just love you guys. I'm just so happy for you, that's really great to hear.

- Thank you, John. I'm, in June I had a PET scan and seven of my 11 locations were gone, weren't even recognized on a PET scan. That left me with four. And so we continued on with our path and treatment. And so by August, the end of August, to have my bones healed, I can't have another PET scan until December to like officially clear, PET scan is the preferred diagnostic tool, but all my markers look wonderful and I feel amazing, I absolutely feel, my quality of life, so I just really feel empowered to have the freedom to choose the path that I want, to have the freedom to choose the practitioners and healers that I want. And I wish our health insurance and healthcare had a little bit more on the preventative side of things, but that's a whole nother conversation. Just knowing that our healthcare providers do the best that they can, knowing that they're restricted to this very small list of things that people can and can't get paid for care. There's so many more choices outside of the United States but the people don't even know where. So part of it is just aware that there are other choices and it's almost like Infinite Banking where you need to be aware that there are other choices than just use your bank and having a checking account and use your 401K. There are other choices. So creating awareness not only for IBC, but you know, the freedom.

- And I don't know, John, would you be willing to, if people had questions about what Kelly did for treatment, could they email us and ask you?

- Yeah, absolutely. And I think, Kelly, you have a blog that you started, maybe you might feel comfortable sharing that with the audience.

- Yeah, absolutely. When I chose to go a different path after my stage four diagnosis, I started posting on, it's called caringbridge.com, which is a website that hosts pages for people who to help communicate and get support from your community. I started posting twice a week back in April, and I'm happy to, for anyone to read it and just read about my journey and the things that I experienced and my progress there. I don't know if there's a place to post the link or share the link, but I believe it's caringbridge.com/kellyjvail, So that's k-e-l-l-y-j-v-a-i-l. And that should take you to my CaringBridge post and you can see my journey and read about what I did and it's pretty, pretty detailed, but I had a lot of people who wanted to know how I was doing and CaringBridge allowed them to keep track of me without hundreds of people trying to call me and text me. But definitely open for, you know, helping other people know they have choices too.

- Yeah and one thing you should know about Kelly is she is very detail-oriented, and not only does that apply to the blog that she created, that goes into all the different treatments that she undergoes really on a daily basis, but it takes me back to when I initially had our conversations about Infinite Banking and when she came into my office with a list of 26 questions that, you know, she wanted to get to the bottom of, you know, what IBC was all about. She tackles things from a perspective where she really wants to pull back the curtain and understand how things operate, how things work, and this was no different. Her experience with IBC and working with me, I mean it basically foretold what would happen when, you know, she got this diagnosis and she wasn't just going to take whatever the doctor was suggesting, she was gonna, you know, ask questions, ask very pertinent questions, and she was gonna get to the bottom of what would ultimately be the best decision for herself. And to see her, for me, it really has been a miraculous journey that I've been witness to over the last seven months. And it's not by mistake. When you are as diligent as she is and you take full responsibility for yourself, and this ties into IBC because you are taking responsibility for your capital, you are putting yourself in charge of that capital. She has made decisions in her life that now have allowed her to really live to her full potential and IBC plays a huge part in that. And I'm so grateful for Nelson Nash for coming up with this concept, for teaching all of us, for making this podcast available to help us teach listeners out there what's possible with IBC because this is just another example that, you know, in Infinite Banking really is covering everything, even things that we don't even think about. And here is Kelly with her experience being shared with all of you guys just to show you that anything is possible with Infinite Banking. So I'm just so grateful, Kelly, that you were willing to share your experience with our audience and I don't know what else to say. I'm incredibly moved just being your partner in life and knowing everything that you stand for, it's a blessing so thank you for being here.

- Absolutely, thank you guys.

- Yeah, and I just want to say, you know, during this whole thing, you know, John and Kelly never even skipped a beat. I mean other than a couple weeks when they were originally out of the country, John never stopped helping and working with clients and keeping things going and moving in the right direction and recording this podcast with me and keeping everything going. And the sheer grit that Kelly showed during this whole process was just really awe inspiring and I'm very thankful that you were willing to share that with us and our listeners. Thank you so much.

- Absolutely, there is hope. It can be, I would say reversed, cure is not acceptable, it can be reversed and quality life can be maintained. So if anything, I just want to inspire people to have hope and know that they can heal and recover. And IBC is just one of those things that just empowers you to have that freedom and hope.

- Well said.

- Amazing. Well, we will post the link to Kelly's blog so you can track what she did for her journey to recovery. And you know, obviously as always, if you have any questions, just go to the fifthedition.com. You can reach out to us and we're happy to help and see how we can make things better in your life. Kelly, thanks again, and John, thank you.

- All right, thank you.

- Thank you, guys.